Wednesday, September 8, 2010
How Do Subs and Doms Negotiate Limits?
I'm back. There were many work issues that came up and some summer fun issues and I was starting to wonder if anyone would notice not much was going on here. I have a decent number of readers, and that goes up when I post, but I was hoping to help some people, entertain some people, open a dialogue and meet some new friends. It was starting to feel like I was not accomplishing much. But Mel and Anonymous let me know there were people out there that were waiting for something more...so....
The short answer is definitely not when they’re tied up and helpless. Limits take negotiation except for hard and fast limits, which are non-negotiable limits set by morality, legality, pain tolerance, fears, concerns or preferences.
Now we know there should be no such thing as a no limits slave. Anyone who thinks that they don't or shouldn't have any limits needs some counseling before they continue to explore and practice S&M and D/s related activities. You can want to give up full control and you can enjoy being hurt but if you take absolutely no interest in the degree to which something harmful might be done to you, or in the actions another person might take, that is counter evolutionary and you need to rethink that. Also, if you have no preference or opinion about what you are doing---why are you doing it. D/s is to get something out of it for both of you. If only one of you gets a benefit it borders on abuse or actual slavery. Do dominants have limits? You should. The hard and fast ones like I do, such as, no children or animals in which of course I have no interest but even if you did it is deplorable and unconscionable, non-consensual, illegal and immoral. If you think about it though you probably have limits beyond legality and morality though. When it comes to, say, bathroom issues. Personally I don't find a lot appealing about urine, though I can certainly see its potential in the humiliation and punishment of a slave, but while I can think that way about piss, I absolutely won't do anything relating to scat. I don’t personally know a dominant or submissive that wants to do scat, though I have been contacted by 2 slaves, one in another state and one in another country, that wanted to be dominated by me because of things they saw or heard---but were desperate to try scat. In both situations we decided it was not necessary that we get together. Think some more, and you may agree with me where I avoid intentional bloodletting , incidental to harsh whipping and canings or severe nipple torture is a part of the scene, but I don’t take any actions specifically where bloodletting is the main activity. I get no excitement from asphyxiation related activities and I have no attraction whatsoever, in fact I have an aversion to urethral play. Those are my limits as a dominant. You can add your own and if you are truly a no limits master then I guess you should get along with everyone! So I started this by saying we should know there's no such thing as a no limits slave but do we really know that and do we understand really what limits are? I guess if we understand what limits are we understand why there really shouldn't be a no limits slave. Now in all fairness, I have written about the fact that slave M at a later point in our relationship removed any limits she had already expressed, which were actually only that she wouldn’t be with another woman, and reiterated her lack of limits in any other area. However that was in the context of a long-term relationship. As I mentioned in at least one post, when we discussed it further she said she had no limits because she trusted my emotions for her and my general care and compassion that I had shown to her and to other human being's. In other words, over time she’d come to trust that I would not do anything that would jeopardize her health, safety or well being nor cause her devastating or permanent injury, and that the worst I would do it to her was inflict pain, humiliate her or make her do unpleasant things, all of which turned her on and/ or she was willing to do to please me. This is the only area I can see a slave expressing no limits and it being an acceptable arrangement, because of the limits imposed by the relationship and the dominant already have proved to be sufficient for the submissive. Slave K was like this too. She had the highest pain tolerance of any submissive I knew, and often wanted to be tortured until bleeding. Nevertheless, she had a lot of problems finding an acceptable boyfriend because she kept finding abusive men. A “no limits” slave might have acquiesced to anyone, but K knew what she was looking for and abuse was not it and she showed more than one supposed Master the door!
I am interested in how other dominants deal with the situation when a slave wants more than you're comfortable with. I try to have some gray areas where I leave it open if the slave needs more than I'm interested in. I’ve had submissive girls that wanted their mouths used as urinals, and though I'd seen this in movies and had thought about what it would be like on occasion, I can't say that it was ever something I planned on doing or at least felt that I needed to do it. In order to help these subs experience satisfaction I will try anything that does not go against a hard and fast rule even if it held little or no interest for me. I have to say I find it difficult to urinate when I’m excited. Sometimes when it seemed too difficult, or I did not feel like “I had to go” I made the slave pee in dog bowls and lick it up themselves. I've also had slaves specifically beg for punishment that would have left their ass or breasts in worse shape than even I was interested in seeing! That’s asking for a lot of harsh punishment! I have to believe once we are together for a while that they are capable of judging when they've had enough. This happened unintentionally with M. a few times because of that heavy sorority paddle she liked to use. She bled and bruised more than I would necessarily have looked for though I have to admit being able to paddle a beautiful ass that harshly for as long as I wanted was intriguing, exciting and very satisfying. Sometimes the canes, or some cord whips, have drawn blood, and that is understandable though I will often stop at that point. However, I have had slaves who felt that, if we designated a certain number of strokes or other way to measure the punishment, that the punishment should be completed and they have insisted that the punishment be completed right then and there, bleeding or not. I believe I have related at least once about a punishment with M. that she insisted we finish despite the severity. Talking about this reminds me that I have been thinking about starting to add reviews to my blogs of other blogs, websites and especially videos. I have seen the videos of Mark E. Desade and he often draws a little blood from his real and severe beatings and he just has tissues in his hand to deal with the bleeding. I myself am not particularly looking to draw blood nor to deal with bleeding while I’m punishing. I have found that generally you can cane or paddle pretty harshly without drawing blood. Interestingly you can do a lot to nipples, including with pins, and not draw blood either. So you can punish pretty severely without ever seeing blood, and blood is not something I usually intentionally draw but unintentional bleeding is occasionally a part of severe punishment. I've been with slaves who want to be punished pretty harshly when the environment allowed us to allow them to scream loudly. Some slaves like to cry when they are being punished. I'm not real into crying, screaming is okay, most of the time those same slaves when the environment wasn't permissible, were able to just give grunts and squeals. If they need to cry and that's what they like I won't stop them or ask them not to but I do find a woman crying not appealing to me. I prefer begging, pleading, moaning, grunting and screaming. However, as I said, I will accommodate a slave who says she likes to release by crying. I would be interested in hearing from some of you what limits and rules you and your dominant have and how you like to react to the harsher punishments. I think in a post on one of the two blogs I wrote about some of the submissives I have met online that I ended up not having any kind of dealings with. One of them expressed the limit of not performing oral sex on her Master. I find this a strange limit for a submissive to have in her head as this is something a lot of people do regularly. Of course I don't want to be judgmental and I wouldn't say that anyone's limits or rules were wrong or misguided. Nevertheless, that's not somebody that I would get involved with because oral sex is something I like to have performed on me as well as perform on women and I think it's a very basic sexual habit whether I'm with someone into D/s or not. As I mentioned when I first got together with M. and we began to explore dominance and submission, her only stated limit was not to be with other women. In reality at that point we were dating and she knew me well and knew that she was comfortable with me and didn't have to worry about her safety otherwise she would've clearly needed to express more limits. I have met a few women who say they have no limits and I've noticed saying this excites them, but I knew them well enough to know they liked the sound of it more than they could ever handle the reality of it. When someone is involved with you and they trust you they can express that they don't want to have any limits because they want you to treat them how you choose to treat them because they've already come to the comfort level with you that they trust you won't go too far. If this submissive doesn't know her mistress or master very well, or in the initial contact says they have no limits, this may be exciting for them but strikes me as unsafe and this is a submissive that needs to be careful. If they had to say it to get excited that's great, but they may also be unpredictable or unstable. Be very careful if you are a dominant with someone who doesn't know you well but is willing to put their safety completely in your hands. I like to tie down slaves when I punish them, but I know that a new slave shouldn't be that interested the first few times I punish them, in being tied down and I never suggest it the first time unless we have come to know each other pretty well over time outside of D/s.. Until they know what I choose to do to them they should be careful. Even then, how do they know I wasn't just treating them lightly until I convinced them it was safe and then tied them down and then really went to town on their body possibly far more than they can take? This is why it's not enough to spend some occasions together but you really need to feel you know each other very well before you should be talking about no limits or allowing someone to bind you where you have no possibility of escape. Bondage and punishment for new slaves or slaves that are new to a relationship has to be one of the riskiest areas for them to be in, and it is incumbent upon any dominant to help educate the submissives on how to keep themselves safe when they're with someone who's not as safe and caring as they may hope. It is of utmost importance that all of you subs take great care in learning about the dominant and what they are about before you put yourself in a position you cannot get yourself out of. Of course, this is not only about bondage and punishment, but about being alone with someone who you know only casually and have now requested to hurt you, but before you get that far you need to know that they understand what you're about, what your limits are, and that they seem at least to be rational and reasonable. There is no doubt that seeking out D/s outside of a caring relationship is a risky endeavor. I can tell you the experience of a friend of mine from college that when people are misleading you it's often not just one small area. In my friend's case she was told by her new acquaintance that they were disease free and had been in very few sexual relationships. She took the guy’s word for it and had unprotected anal sex and ended up getting two different sexually transmitted diseases. One that caused her great discomfort and another one that ultimately killed her. That is the extreme end of the risks, to be sure, but unfortunately a real possibility. My point being that you should try to get to know someone very well and should you catch the dominant in some sort of lie, this should give you pause before you enter yourself into a situation you might not be able to extricate yourself from so easily. This is not to say this is a common occurrence, nor do I hear that many instances of it in the D/s community. But women get attacked in this world too often and things probably happen that we don't hear about so you need to do everything you can to keep yourself safe.
Now that we have talked about limits, let’s see how they stretch in the real world!
M. who had a great deal of trouble saying embarrassing things, (“Master, please fuck your slave’s asshole”)or doing them (fingering her asshole) always responded extremely well to humiliation as well as punishment, moved the conversation to serving in the bathroom. This must have been a fantasy she needed to try because it had to be embarrassing for her to bring up. Of course she didn't say “pee in my mouth sometime.” But instead, when she was feeling particularly submissive, would say things like “it does not seem right that you have to stop using your slave, or punishing your slave, when you have to urinate Master. It would seem to be a failing of your slave if you have to suffer the interruption.”
“Well slave, “I started, not completely clear where she was going with this, as we had seen parts of videos together where slaves were humiliated with urine, either drinking it, pissing in public, etc. but we had never discussed it and I did not feel an intense need to try it, at least not without a participant expressing a specific interest. So I continued: “You could lift the toilet seat for me I suppose, and hold my cock while I piss, but then, If you hold on to my cock I doubt I'll be able to pee.” I laughed. “Besides you don't have any practice aiming and you might get it all over the toilet.”
“I could suck your cock until you cum that will enable you to pee, Master. And if I get any on the toilet your slave knows full well how you'll make her clean it up! ” she responded. Since I had made her clean my cum off of just about everything by then (the toilet seat, the floor, out of other slave’s assholes, pussies and mouths, she knew she would be expected to lick it up!
“True.” I answered, “But you also know how long it sometimes takes me to cum. If it takes too long and I have to pee bad enough, I might accidentally follow your mouthful of cum with a mouthful of piss.”
“Master, if I fail to make you cum fast enough then that would have to be considered part of my punishment. Although, in truth, as your slave that's not necessarily a punishment so much as a service that I am quite sure other slaves are required to perform for their Masters. We have seen it performed in videos after all” She said looking down at the floor.
I thought about this and decided to test her out and see if this is indeed what she was looking for, or if she was simply testing me to see if this is what I was looking for. I reached out and pressed on her lower abdomen. It was rare that this would not make her feel the need to urinate. “Have to pee yet slave?”
“Take off your collar and crawl into the bathroom.” I commanded. She did so very quickly and I could tell she was anxious for something to happen. Given that I was looking for her to pee, and not me, I don't know exactly what she was thinking, but I never thought to ask her . I did make her take her collar off as I was not sure exactly where this would lead either, but I didn’t want anything getting on that nice leather!
In the bathroom I told her to get down and kneel on her knees in the bathtub at the far end of the tub away from the drain and faucet, but facing the drain. “Piss slave!” I demanded. I could see she began to strain and she closed her eyes and concentrated and finally a weak stream started to come out followed by a much stronger stream that shot in the air a few inches in front of her before landing in the tub and flowing towards the drain. When she was done I told her, “Now, toilet, you may clean the tub, understand bitch!” She looked up at me and then down at the tub, nodded her head,“I understand Master,” then leaned forward and brought her mouth to the tub and began to lick wherever she could see some wet droplets. She began to crawl forward and licked all the way until she got to the drain. When she was done I told her to stand up. “Spread your legs whore,” When she did so I stuck two fingers into her pussy and found it was soaking wet. I knew she hadn’t dried after urinating, but this was clearly much more than that! “Clean my fingers slave!” I said as I brought them to her mouth and she licked them clean. When she was done I told her to kneel back in the tub facing me. “There's no sense wasting time walking over to the bowl, is there toilet? Not after watching you lick your piss up, and realizing what an excellent urinal your mouth makes!” I lowered my pants and took my hard cock and started stroking it. She opened her mouth and I grabbed her head and pulled her close to me. It didn't take me long to cum and I shot my load in to her mouth pulling her mouth over my cock so none of it would spill out. She sucked out every last drop and then I pushed her away from me. “You're not allowed to keep your mouth right over my cock, that would be too easy, but for every drop of piss you miss, you will receive one stroke with your very, very heavy sorority paddle. Obviously we will have to estimate the number of drops and you can imagine I'm going to judge any dripping to be many, many drops!”
“Yes Master.” She responded. Moments later the stream began to trickle out of my cock. She tried to move her face to catch the first drops but most of it rolled down her chin. Eventually the stream got stronger and she got her mouth into position and she did not miss a drop after that. Even as the stream weakened at the end she moved her face closer and closer and finally sucked the last drops out of my cock. At that point she ignored my command not to put her mouth over it, but I found it acceptable. We both looked down at the small puddle of piss from what she missed at the beginning.
“That's got to be at least 30 or 40 drops I would say.” I said.
“I'm sure you're correct Master whatever number you come up with.”
“Could be more. To be on the safe side we’ll say 50, right toilet?”
“Yes master, your slave toilet would have to agree, 50 drops…at least.”
I told her to clean herself up, which entailed a quick shower, brushing her teeth and using mouthwash. When she was done she crawled out of the bathroom naked and got into her slave position over the arm of the couch.
“You will count each stroke slave and if you lose count we will start again. You don't have to beg for harder punishment after each stroke however, because I plan on giving you extremely hard strokes from the first one.”
“Yes Master.” She said. I tied her down, though I knew she would remain in position throughout the entire harsh punishment, and would not even try to move her ass or block the blows with her hands, I just often prefer a slave tied down when they are going to be punished. I gave her 50 hard strokes and her ass was dark red and a bit bruised and raw. Then I rammed my swollen cock up her pussy and fucked her hard and fast. When we both came I untied her and then we sat down and talked about the experience.
“I've called you toilet before as a humiliating slave name. Now the circle is complete. How did it feel to be used in that way?”
“Well, it's hard to explain.” I could see she was hesitant.
“What's the matter?” I asked.
“Well, it felt good to be used in that way, very exciting, but it was also unpleasant. I know you like me to be truthful, but I don't want you to feel bad if you really enjoyed it. It's okay if you want to keep doing it because I want to please you and it was very exciting, and I know there are women who do these things regularly, or for money so I could certainly do them for how I feel about you!”
“Yikes!” I said. “If it was that bad you should have stopped.” I said.
“But it wasn't, that's the thing, I can’t explain exactly. I was very excited but at times it was also sort of unpleasant. I have to admit I really enjoyed cleaning the bathtub after I peed, but I think I would've been even happier if you had peed in the tub. Maybe we could experiment with a few different ways but the full load coming right into my mouth with the expectation that I swallow it all was a bit much. Maybe if you peed on me and then made me swallow an occasional mouthful, because all the acts were very exciting. But don’t hold back if you enjoyed it a lot because I can handle unpleasant, and would handle unpleasant if you want me to, I want to be clear on that, but if you're wondering if it's something you want to do because I need it or like it, then we should modify if we are going to include it.”
“I think I understand. We'll see how it goes and if we ever feel the need to involve it again we will do it differently.”
So I did something I didn't feel the need to do to accommodate her desires, and she was willing to continue to do something she didn't particularly like to accommodate mine. This is why it's not only important to have flexible limits so that you can both experience what you need to and want to, and accommodate each other, but also why communication is so important. Imagine doing things for months or years and then finding out you were just doing it for each other and neither one of you was terribly into it?!”
Nipple torture Is another area where desires and limits can meet. I have given some considerable pain to slaves able and willing and indeed anxious--- to feel it. I have included a lot of that in my postings. M. did quite well with needles thrust through her nipples pinning them down to a wooden board. She also did quite well with the self tightening Clover clamps with as much as 5 pounds hanging from each nipple clamp. That was actually the worst nipple pain she said she ever experienced. She said the needles were more scary then actually painful. She said when I would make her move around and swing the heavy weights from her nipple clamps that was some of the most severe punishment she ever suffered or imagined. She said the wooden sorority paddle was similar in pain but she had imagined it would be that painful and it was easier to take on her ass. Some of the large objects I made her take up her asshole were also terribly painful, but again she had imagined that and expected it and was able to handle it most of the time. She said they were all of similar levels but she was omfortable saying that nipple torture was the single most painful. Yet I have had slaves, none who I have detailed here, that wanted severe burns and damage that I was afraid would be permanent, damaging and scarring more than they may have understood when thinking about what the implications would be years from now. I have known some women who were into trying things and didn't seem that worried about how they might reconsider their scarring in the future. They said that I think too much about such things, but I disagree. I think I think just the right amount. Such as, whenever a slave wants a tattoo or brand, I am leery because just as relationships end, minds change and preferences evolve over time, tattoos and brands may someday be very hard to eradicate or explain! I remember when I ran into slave Kayla after we were no longer involved; she showed off a tattoo that she got on her forearm. She was just starting out trying to establish herself in a pretty straight-laced career and I could not figure out why she would put it in such a visible spot. But at that point she was still pretty young and probably wasn't thinking about potential future consequences.
What is far more common and takes much more careful treading and negotiation is when your slave’s limits are significantly more limited than your desires. What do you do when your slave thinks a spanking is harsh punishment and you've been waiting to use your canes on her? When she thinks clothes pins are near intolerable and you want to use weighted clamps. How do you deal with your slave’s limits? For me, the limits are like any other sexual desires, some things you can do without and some things you can’t. Not every slave is into licking your cock or a butt plug clean after they've been up their asshole. Disappointing but I can live with that. Not every submissive girl who dreams of a spanking wants to be whipped, caned or paddled and that would be a lot harder for me to deal with. Some submissive are into pretty harsh punishment but their nipples are so sensitive they can’t take any kind of clamps. I haven't been there myself yet so I don't know how I would deal with that. I like nipple punishment but on the other hand if they can take a really severe caning or paddling of their ass we might be able to work that out! I just don’t know since I have not had to deal with that yet. Some slaves are willing to be punished but have a really difficult time doing things for their Master’s entertainment such as touching themselves. I haven't been with anyone who refused but I've been with people who needed training. Training is fun but refusal would be disappointing. Again, I would be very interested to hear from dominants and submissives about how they negotiate limits when those limits run afoul of their own desires and basic needs. Anyway, interestingly, the one limit that several submissives have stated that I was not thrilled with but I could easily deal with, was them not being with other women. I say interestingly because I have seen this limit fall by the wayside as time progressed. It hasn't fallen for every woman but I have seen it fall on more than one occasion. If any women out there have an understanding about this or a thought or even some conjecture, I would love to hear. As I have mentioned many times, my time with M. later in our relationship was just such a case. We had identified her submissiveness and my desire to dominate her, she offered herself willingly for punishment, and with training she was able to perform self stimulation as well as take my cock in any way I chose to give it to her. She made it clear she would not be doing anything with any other women. Later on, when she decided to raise her level of submission, she offered herself willingly and completely with no caveats. When she first did this I asked if she understood that she had placed no limitations on her submission. She said she understood. I have related before that she explained that she trusted my care for her and my own good sense as the only limitation she needed when it came to punishment and servitude. However, I started to point out that in the past she had stated certain limitations and if she wasn't going to restate them now I was not going to abide by them. She said she understood and that I should do whatever I wanted and trusted that I would keep her safe and healthy as well. That was our only discussion in the matter. After a while I informed her that soon I would bring her other women and I expected her to treat them very nicely. She said she understood. To help get her ready and to train her I would require her to practice begging an imaginary mistress to let her serve her and to punish her. There she would be, naked and bent over the arm of the couch reaching back and spreading her cheeks or kneeling on the floor, begging; “Please mistress let me clean your asshole with my tongue. Please mistress let me eat your pussy until you cum all over my face. Please mistress hurt my nipples. Please mistress cane and paddle my ass until I scream and beg for mercy. Please mistress torture my asshole with your big hard strap on and then fuck my mouth so I can taste your slaves ass.” And so on. It took a lot of practice and punishment to make her convincing, which I enjoyed greatly. She found it easier once we were with other women to do almost everything I just talked about. She found it more difficult to play with her pussy and asshole, or to beg to be fucked up the ass, in front of these women, then to actually service their bodies. She knew she would be punished quite severely and for an extended period of time, and by these own women's hands as well as mine, if she were to hesitate at these times, but for whatever reason she needed to do so. After incredibly harsh and drawn-out punishment, she would acquiesce to whatever I demanded or her Mistress commanded. Of course it wasn't always someone I wanted to play mistress, often I had the other women participate as another slave right alongside M. At first I found it better when M knew her place was to simply serve the other woman, instead of complicating matters by my dominating the other woman as well. Since that time you've read many posts here that have talked about M serving with, and for, other women.
That covers what I have to say about limits for this post. Let me know if any of you have anything to add!